Curse

DarkSpirit · Apr 23, 2008, 11:53 PM // 23:53

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Originally Posted by Racthoh

I'm getting confused. In the 20 seconds that FGJ is up your monks have somehow burned all of their energy and you've taken deaths despite the +100 AL of SY. You have also somehow burned all of your energy as well. But if you go into Ursan mode at that point, losing the +100 with monks drained of energy, you have a better chance of winning?

My single monk (Mhenlo) was already dead by that time since he is a priority target, the +100 would only benefit an energy drained Herta then. If it is only a matter of killing the 2 or 3 leftover injured monsters solo, then wouldn't Ursan stand a better chance?

Melonni was getting some pressure so she was running around rather than casting Dark Fury. I could feel that SY wasn't getting recharge as often as when I started the battle. Then faintheartedness+suffering was cast on me and probably on my other Paragon heroes. Aegis was cast by the monsters and Meteor Showers on my heroes. If my Paragon heroes slow down or stop casting chants/shouts due to death/hexes/kiting/etc, and my own SY slowed down, my AR refreshing is gone. This slows down my adrenaline gain and thus energy gain, even further.

My only monk was Mhenlo, and I suspect he doesn't have much energy to begin with. As party members die, I am not getting much energy return from SY. I'll try the staff to get AR back on and perhaps SY would come back on a more regular flow. It is a pain having fewer team members around to fuel Paragon shouts.

Khomet Si Netjer · Apr 27, 2008, 05:46 PM // 17:46

You can judge the value of this advice as you like...

The strength of SY is the huge armor increase, but your party will still be killed by armor ignoring damage. This includes a lot more than you think...

- bonus damage from weapon skills
- lifestealing
- holy damage
- shadow damage
- spirits
- hexes (spiteful spirit, empathy)
- spells (shatter enchantment, energy burn, putrid explosion)
- degen

You might imagine that weapon damage is not a real threat but some of the weapon damage can be pretty severe, especially dervishes and assassins (e.g. Ferothrax, Raptors). I have had them spike members of my party through SY and TNTF.

As has already been pointed out, the Angorodons do lifestealing which cuts right through SY. The other big problem with Invincigon is that SY doesn't affect you, meaning that your party has higher armor than you, meaning that you tend to get targeted and spiked if the enemy can reach you. This is worse in hard mode thanks to inherent attack/movement/casting time buffs on the monsters.

The most basic problem has already been mentioned before but I'll mention it again. Anything that stops the paragon from hitting the enemy kills the Invincigon... this includes Blind, 'miss' hexes, blocking stances, Aegis, Guardian, etc. Mass blinding a la Shards of Orr is difficult to deal with, so is constant blocking and hexes like Faintheartedness, Shadow of Fear, Vocal Minority, Blurred Vision. If you can't hit the enemy you can't gain adrenaline, the shields go down and people die. Racthoh and I did Shards of Orr hard mode together, it went extremely smoothly and very fast (~45min?) but we planned ahead to mitigate these problems.

For those who still believe Imbagon >>> everything, go try Ooze Pit or Rragar's Menagerie in hard mode and see how the Invincigon isn't invincible. :-)

Savio · Apr 27, 2008, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Of course imbagons/invincigons/whatever you want to call them aren't invincible, but they are the strongest defensive option for a party. Any weaknesses they have can be worked around easily.

Also, holy damage isn't necessarily armor-ignoring.

MisterB · Apr 27, 2008, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Imbagons also carry around [["There's Nothing to Fear!"]. That skill works on any damage, including all the damage sources you listed. That only leaves life steal and degen. I'd much rather play as or with a Paragon running SY/TNTF than Ursan.

DarkSpirit · Apr 27, 2008, 09:27 PM // 21:27

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Originally Posted by MisterB

Imbagons also carry around [["There's Nothing to Fear!"]. That skill works on any damage, including all the damage sources you listed. That only leaves life steal and degen. I'd much rather play as or with a Paragon running SY/TNTF than Ursan.

TNTF with 15e with 20s recharge is not exactly spammable and it lasts for only 10s.

Imbagon is really not as invincible as alot here seem to think. As a physical class, you have the usual shutdowns like (blind, weakness, block, adrenaline denial hexes, attack speed slow down hexes, miss hexes, anti-adrenaline hexes, etc.). The energy gain from leadership is also dependent on how many affected allies are still alive around your shout range so you can actually have lower energy at the time when you need it most.

Switching to a staff for energy to use TNTF maybe a workable temporary solution, but if most of my H/H are already dead, it is going to be painful for a prolonged battle without much energy boost from leadership.

SY/TNTF Imbagon is good on a protective team build but Ursan is superior when it down to solo damage and solo protection. I dont like Ursan teams and I have never joined one, I usually H/H. Ursan bias aside, I like the idea of being able to switch modes based on battle situations.

Savio · Apr 27, 2008, 10:56 PM // 22:56

If most of your H/H are dead, you're going to lose anyway because the AI is easily beating you. If this is happening consistently, it's an issue with the rest of your team's setup and not the imbagon. Ursan might squeeze you by a few situations where most of your team's wiped and most of the enemies are wiped, but why are you planning for a situation which shouldn't be happening with regularity?

Yes, imbagons have weaknesses; that's what the rest of your party is for. Physicals do terrible if they don't have support. If the monks and the midliners can't keep the imbagon clean, their builds need to be reworked so that they can.

Kale Ironfist · Apr 27, 2008, 11:42 PM // 23:42

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You might imagine that weapon damage is not a real threat but some of the weapon damage can be pretty severe, especially dervishes and assassins (e.g. Ferothrax, Raptors). I have had them spike members of my party through SY and TNTF.

Prot Monk. GG.

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As has already been pointed out, the Angorodons do lifestealing which cuts right through SY. The other big problem with Invincigon is that SY doesn't affect you, meaning that your party has higher armor than you, meaning that you tend to get targeted and spiked if the enemy can reach you. This is worse in hard mode thanks to inherent attack/movement/casting time buffs on the monsters.

Don't play around with low max health. Also, every team should have a source of healing, whether it is from several Motigons, Ritualists or Monks.

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The most basic problem has already been mentioned before but I'll mention it again. Anything that stops the paragon from hitting the enemy kills the Invincigon... this includes Blind, 'miss' hexes, blocking stances, Aegis, Guardian, etc. Mass blinding a la Shards of Orr is difficult to deal with, so is constant blocking and hexes like Faintheartedness, Shadow of Fear, Vocal Minority, Blurred Vision. If you can't hit the enemy you can't gain adrenaline, the shields go down and people die. Racthoh and I did Shards of Orr hard mode together, it went extremely smoothly and very fast (~45min?) but we planned ahead to mitigate these problems.

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Imbagon is really not as invincible as alot here seem to think. As a physical class, you have the usual shutdowns like (blind, weakness, block, adrenaline denial hexes, attack speed slow down hexes, miss hexes, anti-adrenaline hexes, etc.). The energy gain from leadership is also dependent on how many affected allies are still alive around your shout range so you can actually have lower energy at the time when you need it most.

That's like saying caster spike is defeated by Daze. It's stupid because you're assuming that there is no condition removal or hex removal on the ENTIRE 8 player party. What kind of party does not bring condition and hex removal? If there is an overload, you either match removals to meet the overload (not exactly the best strategy, since you lose out on a lot of slots) or you make an alternate means to beat them.

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Switching to a staff for energy to use TNTF maybe a workable temporary solution, but if most of my H/H are already dead, it is going to be painful for a prolonged battle without much energy boost from leadership.

If you know it's a losing battle, why do you continue fighting? It's smarter to resurrect as early as possible, then retreat, regroup and figure what you did wrong for another crack at it.

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SY/TNTF Imbagon is good on a protective team build but Ursan is superior when it down to solo damage and solo protection. I dont like Ursan teams and I have never joined one, I usually H/H. Ursan bias aside, I like the idea of being able to switch modes based on battle situations.

Guild Wars is based around teamwork. Solo indicates no teamwork. Why is it that we're discussing the weaknesses of the imbagon build and the strengths of an Ursan in a game so heavily dependent on teamwork without discussing who our party members are? Sure, the comment made that having an imbagon in your party makes you invincible is an exaggeration, but arguing the ability to provide invincibility to the party is stupid, it can't be done unless the circumstances are skewed. Moreover, the Ursan can't even provide a similar level of protection, it only has the one knockdown.

What we should be looking at is the team setup and teamwork, because that is where our arguments have any relevance. You are presenting a point in which the circumstance dictates they do not exist, which is impossible, because the defensive web provided by the imbagon would mean they would have survived longer than if the Ursan was present in its stead, and in this situation, you will die anyway. That leaves the only other option, where they do exist to support you, and in that situation, an imbagon matches, possibly even exceed the damage dealt by the Ursan and provides party wide support. Anyone not within earshot range is likely kiting, which isn't a big deal unless more than a few are. If they're outside of range but not kiting, what are they doing on the team in the first place?

This all leads to what I said before; stupidity defeats the imbagon. All your examples don't depict a very good picture as to what you're thinking. None of them make any sense unless certain assumptions are made, yet those same assumptions don't appear realistic.

DarkSpirit · Apr 28, 2008, 08:35 AM // 08:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Savio

If most of your H/H are dead, you're going to lose anyway because the AI is easily beating you. If this is happening consistently, it's an issue with the rest of your team's setup and not the imbagon. Ursan might squeeze you by a few situations where most of your team's wiped and most of the enemies are wiped, but why are you planning for a situation which shouldn't be happening with regularity?

Yes, imbagons have weaknesses; that's what the rest of your party is for. Physicals do terrible if they don't have support. If the monks and the midliners can't keep the imbagon clean, their builds need to be reworked so that they can.

You honestly dont need SY spamming to keep your party alive either, otherwise how do you think my non-paragon characters get by in HM without SY/TNTF?

They are just nice-to-haves and my mesmers do just fine with similar H/H setup, in the same areas, without SY/TNTF at all. In any case, SY and TNTF are defensive skills so they wont help you to kill any faster.

SY/TNTF is nice when they work, but they dont work in ALL places in the game. Anti-adrenaline gain hexes, or physical shutdown would affect you unless you re-configure your team to workaround them, which is a hassle at times. Ursan is just a convenient way of overcoming block/blind/anti-adrenaline hexes/etc if you are too lazy to reconfigure your party for those areas.

In other words, I dont really need the extra defense from SY/TNTF, in most areas just to keep the team alive, but a more offensive force that overcomes physical shutdown at times without having to re-configure my team, can be useful. Be an imbagon when I need to and be an Ursan when I need to.

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Guild Wars is based around teamwork. Solo indicates no teamwork.

For someone who supports the use of heroes in H/H teams, I have to disagree with that statement.

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Sure, the comment made that having an imbagon in your party makes you invincible is an exaggeration, but arguing the ability to provide invincibility to the party is stupid, it can't be done unless the circumstances are skewed. Moreover, the Ursan can't even provide a similar level of protection, it only has the one knockdown.

What? Party invincibility is an exaggeration too. Your SY is not going to protect against all forms of damage either. Why do people keep thinking as long as you spam SY your party members would never ever die?

If you need SY/TNTF just to keep your party alive then there is something already wrong with your team setup.

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That's like saying caster spike is defeated by Daze. It's stupid because you're assuming that there is no condition removal or hex removal on the ENTIRE 8 player party. What kind of party does not bring condition and hex removal? If there is an overload, you either match removals to meet the overload (not exactly the best strategy, since you lose out on a lot of slots) or you make an alternate means to beat them.

Don't you know that many builds nowadays dont even bring a hex removal in PvE? Look at sabway. Even if you bring a hex removal, there are places in HM with Suffering that your hex removing heroes probably cant remove the right hex at the right time fast enough anyway.

I can still bring one or two hex removal within the skill slots of my 3 heroes, but I wouldn't rely on them.

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If you know it's a losing battle, why do you continue fighting? It's smarter to resurrect as early as possible, then retreat, regroup and figure what you did wrong for another crack at it.

Maybe because I prefer to have a res.

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What we should be looking at is the team setup and teamwork, because that is where our arguments have any relevance. You are presenting a point in which the circumstance dictates they do not exist, which is impossible, because the defensive web provided by the imbagon would mean they would have survived longer than if the Ursan was present in its stead, and in this situation, you will die anyway. That leaves the only other option, where they do exist to support you, and in that situation, an imbagon matches, possibly even exceed the damage dealt by the Ursan and provides party wide support. Anyone not within earshot range is likely kiting, which isn't a big deal unless more than a few are. If they're outside of range but not kiting, what are they doing on the team in the first place?

If I want teamwork, I would have tried harder to farm my norn rank and join an Ursanway PUG (depending on the area, most PUGs run Ursanway nowadays). But I dont like doing that, so I H/H most of the time.

Why do you assume that my party would die without SY/TNTF in areas when I have got through fine without SY/TNTF on non-paragon characters? Are you saying that you can only clear that area with an Imbagon and all other builds are useless? In fact, the physical characters have more problems in certain areas because they have so many shutdowns. Sure you can reconfigure your team to bring extra defensive skills to work around these areas, but why bother when Ursan (only 1 elite skill) can already work around them.

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This all leads to what I said before; stupidity defeats the imbagon. All your examples don't depict a very good picture as to what you're thinking. None of them make any sense unless certain assumptions are made, yet those same assumptions don't appear realistic.

The thing is most people have a personal bias against Ursan skill for some strange reason, when they should be complaining about people abusing Ursanway. I can tell you straight that in most places, my team setup can get through them without a single SY, even in HM. Then I have to wait for hex removal/condition removal so my Paragon can attack effectively with her spear, when I can just Ursan through at a faster rate. In other tougher places, SY and TNTF are more useful but I have to balance offense with defense at times. Too much of one without enough of the other is just bad. Not enough offense and just spamming SY would not win the battle for you either.

Kale Ironfist · Apr 28, 2008, 12:04 PM // 12:04

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For someone who supports the use of heroes in H/H teams, I have to disagree with that statement.

Read what you wrote again, then clarify that. H/H indicates HERO/HENCHMEN. How can you NOT have heroes in H/H? Also, if you're doing it with H/H, the teamwork is in all the micromanagement you're doing to support each other. So of course there is teamwork between characters. The difference is that you control it instead of another person.

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What? Party invincibility is an exaggeration too. Your SY is not going to protect against all forms of damage either. Why do people keep thinking as long as you spam SY your party members would never ever die?

Because the standard party has ~2 Monks. Those Monks provide their own protection, and the combined defensive web keeps you alive long enough to fight a war of attrition if it comes down to it.

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If you need SY/TNTF just to keep your party alive then there is something already wrong with your team setup.

It's probably the strongest of the PvE skills, so people will take it to min/max their party setup because they want efficiency in as many aspects as controllable.

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Maybe because I prefer to have a res.

Have a resurrect skill, or get resurrected? You quoted me saying to resurrect your party members and retreat.

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If I want teamwork, I would have tried harder to farm my norn rank and join an Ursanway PUG (depending on the area, most PUGs run Ursanway nowadays). But I dont like doing that, so I H/H most of the time.

How is there no teamwork with H/H? You exist as part of that team, and they will support you. If need be, you can override their AI.

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Why do you assume that my party would die without SY/TNTF in areas when I have got through fine without SY/TNTF on non-paragon characters? Are you saying that you can only clear that area with an Imbagon and all other builds are useless?

This argument started with:
1. Team with imbagon is dying
2. Would Ursan have been better in its (imbagon) place?
3. Ursan has less ways to be shutdown, so obviously it is superior

The pro-imbagon team interjected with:
4. No, it is not superior, because if you had taken an Ursan in that situation, the party would have died anyway, only faster.

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In fact, the physical characters have more problems in certain areas because they have so many shutdowns. Sure you can reconfigure your team to bring extra defensive skills to work around these areas, but why bother when Ursan (only 1 elite skill) can already work around them.

Assuming there is only one Ursan (the one that replaced the imbagon), in terms of efficiency, it is stronger to bother to support the imbagon to get it running. As you replace characters with Ursans, this requires a higher percentage of remaining skillbar space and becomes less efficient, so isn't worth the effort.

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The thing is most people have a personal bias against Ursan skill for some strange reason, when they should be complaining about people abusing Ursanway.

The key skill to Ursanway is... Ursan Blessing. To reduce the efficiency of Ursanway, you must hit the skills provided by Ursan Blessing. Hence, they are going after the root of the problem, and not the immediate problem.

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I can tell you straight that in most places, my team setup can get through them without a single SY, even in HM. Then I have to wait for hex removal/condition removal so my Paragon can attack effectively with her spear, when I can just Ursan through at a faster rate. In other tougher places, SY and TNTF are more useful but I have to balance offense with defense at times. Too much of one without enough of the other is just bad. Not enough offense and just spamming SY would not win the battle for you either.

1. Bragging about team setup is irrelevant to the argument.
2. Ursan usually has higher DPS than the Paragon, but does not provide the same defensive support, so saying Ursan can get you through faster depends on the area you're facing and how much support you're getting from your party.
3. The whole point of the imbagon build is to bring extremely strong defense in addition to good offense, reducing the need to balance how much defense to offense you're bringing.

DarkSpirit · Apr 28, 2008, 03:47 PM // 15:47

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Originally Posted by Kale Ironfist

Read what you wrote again, then clarify that. H/H indicates HERO/HENCHMEN. How can you NOT have heroes in H/H? Also, if you're doing it with H/H, the teamwork is in all the micromanagement you're doing to support each other. So of course there is teamwork between characters. The difference is that you control it instead of another person.

In many GW context, to bring H/H means to solo. Meaning no other human players around.

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Because the standard party has ~2 Monks. Those Monks provide their own protection, and the combined defensive web keeps you alive long enough to fight a war of attrition if it comes down to it.

But having 2 monks + SY does not equate to TOTAL INVINCIBILITY! Hench monks would also run out of energy in a prolonged fight and they kite the wrong way sometimes. Even if you can keep 100 AL up flawlessly, it doesn't imply that you team is taking ZERO damage all the while.

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It's probably the strongest of the PvE skills, so people will take it to min/max their party setup because they want efficiency in as many aspects as controllable.

Perhaps but they are strong in terms of defense, not offense. Sometimes the best defense IS a strong offense. Killing your enemies fast also saves you alot of healing, afterall the hench monk energy is limited.

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Have a resurrect skill, or get resurrected? You quoted me saying to resurrect your party members and retreat.

Or, if there are not many foes left, kill them all then resurrect.

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How is there no teamwork with H/H? You exist as part of that team, and they will support you. If need be, you can override their AI.

Because it is not a real team, unless you are referring to micro-managing the H/H which is hard to do when you are trying to spam SY/TNTF as often as possible. It not like you are using Vent to work with your team.

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This argument started with:
1. Team with imbagon is dying
2. Would Ursan have been better in its (imbagon) place?
3. Ursan has less ways to be shutdown, so obviously it is superior

The pro-imbagon team interjected with:
4. No, it is not superior, because if you had taken an Ursan in that situation, the party would have died anyway, only faster.

Then you have to find out why the Paragon team is dying and I went through this with Rac before while using his default team build. First of all, there were 2 Flameshielders that cast Aegis and the default build doesn't have an enchant removal or Rigor Mortis. Second, Faintheartedness and Suffering overloaded the hex removal and impacted the Paragons's adrenaline gain. Third, AoE like Meteor Shower and Rogort's Invocation is effective against H/H that tend to clump together. Rac gave good counters for these but it involves bringing skills that I dont normally bring. I cleared it easily later on, by bringing necro heroes but as you can see, the physical shutdowns are there and I have to incorporate more defensive skills into the team build to overcomes them.

In other more physical friendly areas, the default build works flawlessly but you have to ask if you really need SY/TNTF for those areas, to stay alive, then?

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Assuming there is only one Ursan (the one that replaced the imbagon), in terms of efficiency, it is stronger to bother to support the imbagon to get it running. As you replace characters with Ursans, this requires a higher percentage of remaining skillbar space and becomes less efficient, so isn't worth the effort.

I can't replace characters with Ursan because I only H/H. The question with when to use Ursan comes up when most of the team is dead and the value of continuing with SY/TNTF to prop up the remainder, has dropped significantly, OR, because of shutdowns, you are not able to spam SY/TNTF as much as you need to.

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1. Bragging about team setup is irrelevant to the argument.
2. Ursan usually has higher DPS than the Paragon, but does not provide the same defensive support, so saying Ursan can get you through faster depends on the area you're facing and how much support you're getting from your party.

I agree, if most of the party is alive and doing well, SY/TNTF for continued protection makes sense.

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3. The whole point of the imbagon build is to bring extremely strong defense in addition to good offense, reducing the need to balance how much defense to offense you're bringing.

But what kind of offense are you bringing? If you are thinking of physical offense like spear throwing, then those comes with the usual huge list of shutdowns that I have mentioned. Then you have to gear up and change your team configuration to casters and bring more defensive skills (e.g. Rigor Mortis, Mirror of Disenchantment against Aegis, etc.) just to prop up your Imbagon's spear attacks so that they remain effective. Using Ursan overcomes those shutdowns and kills fast too which is why you still need to balance when to use offense with defense.

Tyla · Apr 28, 2008, 03:52 PM // 15:52

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

But having 2 monks + SY does not equate to TOTAL INVINCIBILITY which is the word you used! You are exaggerating the Imbagon to an "I WIN" button. Hench monks would also run out of energy in a prolonged fight and they kite the wrong way sometimes. Even if you can keep 100 AL up flawlessly, it doesn't imply that you team is taking ZERO damage all the while.

It's still extremely strong.

+100 AL (Perma) and 35% damage reduction (1/2 upkeep) is close to godmode as I see it.
Very few areas reduce the benefits, and they don't reduce them by much.

DarkSpirit · Apr 28, 2008, 04:05 PM // 16:05

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Originally Posted by Tyla

+100 AL (Perma) and 35% damage reduction (1/2 upkeep) is close to godmode as I see it.
Very few areas reduce the benefits, and they don't reduce them by much.

Extremely strong defense doesn't equate to Godmode. I hate to bring Rac's default hero team build again because it is essentially a good build and you can spam SY easily with it, but it fails in certain areas while doing well in others. Melonni doesn't cast DF on time because she was running and avoiding AoE. Mhenlo wasn't using his deny hex or removing conditions much because he was being knockdown by Meteor Shower or he stupidly kites into one. Things can still happen to bring your so-called Godmode down and if you dont configure your team for enchant removal or against blocking, then dual Aegis casters would own you, not to mention suffering covering faintheartedness to slow down your attacks and burning from Rogort's Invocation which goes through your SY. People just look at the +100AL and thinks you can overcome EVERYTHING.

If you have used an Imbagon+2 Paragon heroes+OOP/DF D/N team configuration, you would realize in certain areas, bringing necro heroes are more effective because of physical shutdowns.

Tyla · Apr 28, 2008, 04:12 PM // 16:12

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

snip

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Originally Posted by Me

...as I see it

Ohai, I herd that was an opinion.

And yeah, you CAN interrupt Aegis (As you said, Cry of Pain ftw), or even use Mirror of Disenchantment.
For MS, move your H/H out with flags and don't overaggro.
For hexes, use hex removal after flagging them out.

And yeah, stop noting 2 regions of the ENTIRE PvE side of the game, I can also run SY Barrager and keep up SY to a decent extent in those same areas (Doesn't stop it being a bad way to pump out SY though.), and if I can do that, it's obvious that a Paragon can do it much, much better in the same conditions.

Plus yeah, out of 2 regions +100 armour for defense should suffice almost every area in the game.
Blind spam is notable, but workable, like everything else in the game.

DarkSpirit · Apr 28, 2008, 04:49 PM // 16:49

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Originally Posted by Tyla

Ohai, I herd that was an opinion.

And yeah, you CAN interrupt Aegis (As you said, Cry of Pain ftw), or even use Mirror of Disenchantment.

I dont normally bring MoD and I am lazy to reconfigure everytime. Rac's build does not include a mesmer. Do you know what build we are talking about?

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10254869

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For MS, move your H/H out with flags and don't overaggro.
For hexes, use hex removal after flagging them out.

Doesn't work when there are multiple casters and you are busy spamming SY.

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And yeah, stop noting 2 regions of the ENTIRE PvE side of the game, I can also run SY Barrager and keep up SY to a decent extent in those same areas (Doesn't stop it being a bad way to pump out SY though.), and if I can do that, it's obvious that a Paragon can do it much, much better in the same conditions.

It is more than just 2 regions. Read the thread. You have to reconfigure the team for certain areas, due to physical shutdown.

Tyla · Apr 28, 2008, 05:12 PM // 17:12

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Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

I dont normally bring MoD and I am lazy to reconfigure everytime. Rac's build does not include a mesmer. Do you know what build we are talking about?

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10254869

You can always switch one of the builds round to bring Cry of Frustration.

And yeah, laziness doesn't contribute to your argument.

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Doesn't work when there are multiple casters and you are busy spamming SY.

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Originally Posted by Me

Don't overaggro

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It is more than just 2 regions. Read the thread. You have to reconfigure the team for certain areas, due to physical shutdown.

Ya and did you see these things called hex removal and condition removal?
And there are even things which make your enemy not block, such as Rigor Mortis.

All I can say is that you're biased.

Div · Apr 28, 2008, 05:25 PM // 17:25

If you find the imbagon setup to not provide super powers, you are either
1) Failing
2) Retarded
or 3) Both

Having an imbagon doesn't mean you can aggro 50 monsters that give -30 degen to the team in HM. It just means you can tank larger mob groups than usual and generally don't die.

DarkSpirit · Apr 28, 2008, 05:34 PM // 17:34

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Originally Posted by holymasamune

If you find the imbagon setup to not provide super powers, you are either
1) Failing
2) Retarded
or 3) Both

Having an imbagon doesn't mean you can aggro 50 monsters that give -30 degen to the team in HM. It just means you can tank larger mob groups than usual and generally don't die.

You are wrong. Imbagons doesn't equate to Godmode or a "I Win" button. You are not guaranteed to always win with a Imbagon. Otherwise, name me 1 team build, with H/H, that is guaranteed to win no matter what because that is what my definition of true Godmode is, to be invincible at all times.

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Originally Posted by Tyla

You can always switch one of the builds round to bring Cry of Frustration.

And yeah, laziness doesn't contribute to your argument.

And I dont need to re-configure as much with sabway. Again, due to physical shutdown. People look at the +100AL and dont even consider physical shutdown in their analysis at all. Even if you bring hex/condition removal, which Mhenlo has, he still dies because he enjoys standing in AoE or he is too busy kiting to cast anything. Same with the other heroes. You are not guaranteed to always win with a Imbagon, a well designed monster group can still bring down an Imbagon easily through cover hexes and cover physical shutdown conditions.

Besides if you need to reconfigure your build all the time, then the build is not true Godmode.

Tyla · Apr 28, 2008, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

And I dont need to re-configure as much with sabway. Again, due to physical shutdown.

A -- 1 skill doesn't mean you have to reconfigure the entire bar.
B -- Again, your laziness doesn't contribute to your argument.

Div · Apr 28, 2008, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkSpirit

You are wrong. Imbagons doesn't equate to Godmode or a "I Win" button. You are not guaranteed to always win with a Imbagon. Otherwise, name me 1 team build, with H/H, that is guaranteed to win no matter what because that is what my definition of Godmode is, to be invincible at all times.

When did I ever say that I'm always guaranteed to win with an imbagon? I even said that you can't be retarded and aggro 50 monsters at the same time.

Godmode is just a name people give it to refer to its near invincible tanking capabilities. Go look metaphor up in the dictionary.